Tech/Evolution Trees

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Ishq
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Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by Ishq »

Note: This is the compilation of lots of IRC discussion and the culmination of many people's ideas, and this is just one way I thought of spinning it.

Tech/Evolution Trees
What are they?
A tree basically describes an alternate method to get upgrades. We currently use stages, which gives a group of upgrades associated with a stage once a team reaches a certain confidence threshold. A tree on the other hand allows a team to pick and choose individual upgrades and certain upgrades have other upgrades as a "pre-requisite" to use. For instance, to get a battlesuit, you would need to have both the helmet and light armor.

How it will work
This system aims to reuse the confidence system already in place. Confidence is a flexible system that essentially rewards a player for doing "good." Killing enemy buildings, building, and being aggressive (by killing enemies outside their own base). This can be easily expanded or modified to favor certain forms of gameplay. The idea is that earning a certain level of confidence will earn a player some amount of upgrade points (name subject to change), which can be allocated to certain upgrades. They can be allocated either by commands (and by extension, binds) or with a nifty GUI, which will essentially be a frontend for said commands. And important note to make is that in this implementation, upgrade points are not spent, only allocated. Meaning that if the team doesn't keep performing, they will start losing upgrades and have to reallocate points to get what they want. This way, we can allow teams to be even more aggressive because they can save up immediately for a certain kind of weapon, and make camping even harder. And since confidence is based on momentum at any given time, both teams have a chance at making a comeback if they manage to strike hard and unlock hard hitting weapons.

Why have it
Trees offer an alternative, more dynamic method of getting upgrades. It adds a unique element to each game and presents more strategy as following a certain path on a tree may better suit one map than another. It is less artificial, more dynamic, and more immersive, which ultimately, will translate to more fun for the player.

Potential Problems

  • Newbies will cause democracy to fail
    Potentially. One byproduct of this system is that the better players (and therefore, more experienced players) will generally earn more of the upgrade points than the newbies and therefore, will have a greater impact on whether a team can reach a certain upgrade. Of course, there will always be these boundary cases where a team only needs like one more point and a newbie has it. In cases like this, the team will need to communicate to the newbie and tell him how its done. Furthermore, we hope to have interactive tutorials explaining this information.

  • Deadlock
    In any democracy, this can happen. Two competing factions may choose to go down two opposing routes, therefore, the furthest upgrades on the tree on both routes will unlikely be unlocked. Quite frankly, there really isn't a solution to this. People just need to learn to work together.

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kharnov
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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by kharnov »

Didn't we already discuss this a year ago? I'm pretty sure you originally didn't want this, but whatever.

I would personally be in favor of personal upgrade paths. If I use nothing but a shotgun and everyone else is going painsaw, I don't want to waste my personal efforts on a weapon that I could not care less about. This also solves the democracy issue, as I don't need to rely on the efforts of anyone but myself. In addition, it works out better for the team as a whole, because if you're not helping newbies unlock extremely powerful weapons, they're not going to go off and misuse them and help the aliens out with getting free tyrants because some idiot couldn't pick up a single piece of armor to go with his lucifer cannon.

If we do it that way or we don't, I can design the story around either. With individual upgrades, it would be due to the off-map commander or overmind recognizing an individual player as being worthy of utilizing more resource-draining technologies or forms, respectively. Or, if you stick to team-based upgrades, it would be on a higher level, like the overseeing headquarters or a more distant over-overmind. Don't worry too much about how this makes sense in terms of the story, as I can easily work with anything that we figure out.

I would also like to help design the trees themselves, if we actually decide to go down the path. Instead of some abstract "lasgun unlocks the mass driver" deal, we can be much more creative than that. There's so much potential for story material to be involved. You're not just unlocking the mass driver, you're unlocking linear mass accelerators. It's not just a pulse rifle, it's self-contained plasma physics. Or for the aliens, something like a dragoon could be written to be a heavily modified marauder, considering they have the greatest similarity in body form. Those are all just examples, but I'd really like to be creative with all of this. I can write flavor text for everything.

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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by kangz »

Tech trees are a way to make upgrades depend on confidence (or how well you do in the game) with a way smaller granularity., which is a good thing. It also make the game seem more modern with a sort ingame XP count.

I'm not sure how to do a team unlock system if upgrades can be lost but I'd definitely prefer that over personnal upgrades: you'll play each game differently based on the decisions of your team instead of sticking to the naked nade rushes.

Also someone proposed to make the price of certain weapons and piece of equipement smaller (shotgun starts at 2000 creds and gradually becomes cheaper thus easier to get).

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Ishq
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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by Ishq »

The main reason I am less favorable about personal trees is that the good players will get hugely better weapons and the worse players will stay at the bottom. They will remain irrelevant, and the game will be a battle between the people at the top. This won't be fun for everyone.

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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by kharnov »

Ishq wrote:

The main reason I am less favorable about personal trees is that the good players will get hugely better weapons and the worse players will stay at the bottom. They will remain irrelevant, and the game will be a battle between the people at the top. This won't be fun for everyone.

That's basically how it's always going to end up anyway, for as long as you require credits or an equivalent to upgrade yourself. If you remove the credit requirement and make things free as long as they're unlocked, maybe that will change. Otherwise, it will end up exactly like that no matter what you do.

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Ishq
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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by Ishq »

Or decrease prices as gimhael suggested on IRC. I think that's a pretty good way of going about things. Also, with team based unlocking, you can at least save up. I remember when i started trem, I was pretty thrilled when I got my first tyrant by saving up evos at s3. With personal trees, you can't even save up.

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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by Viech »

I'm also in favor of personal resource trees.

First I'd like to explain why I don't see any good way to make team-wide trees work. There's basically three approaches that I can think of.

With path I'm describing the order in which technologies are acquired, no matter whether there's really a path between the tree nodes in that order in a mathematical sense. With specialized and wide I describe pathes that aim at the higher level skills or try to go down many branches at the same time, respectively.

Democracy
The players either 1) have to agree on one path or 2) have their individual wishes averaged. In both cases, this will lead to very similar pathes being chosen in every public game. Because of the restrictions in public communication, unorthodox pathes will fail in (1) because no one is aware that the one who proposes the path (or just a part of it, depending on the implementation) has put some thought into it. Even if they trust in the proposing players ability to make a good decision, they would still not know the strategy he or she has in mind. (2) would fail because any uncommon approach will just end up making the average path less specialized.
The democratic approach, even if it yielded interesting and varying results, will be very inflexible to adjustments to the chosen path. In the case of (2), it doesn't really have a strategy-changing impact if a single player changes the path, since the averaged path won't change much. In the case of (1), I sense bad blood if two players compete with alternating votes. Being forced to continuously take part in those votes will also interrupt the game for all the other players.

Dictatorship
Aka Commander Mode. A single player is elected or chosen automatically to decide on the teams strategy. There are two possible extremes that can make the game less fun: If the commander does a bad job and the decisions lead to a defeat, players will blame the dictator and be generally in a bad mood (we know this from alleged bad building already). On the other hand, if the well known (election) or skilled/experienced (automatic assignment) players become comanders most of the time, this will exclude unexperienced players from the tech trees alltogether, making the learning curve even steeper.
I also think that having a half-assed commander mode is much worse than having none. If there is a commander position, people accustomed to Battlefield and co will expect a lot more features than that, like tactical maps with the ability to set targets, squad management, support abilitys.
An argument totally unrelated to gamedesign is that not having a commander mode will help us staying different from our only relevant competitor.

Hybrid
If we want everyone to participate but still get varying results each game, we could go for weighted voting. The players that have a greater impact on the progress of their team (total confidence earned, score) will have a greater influence when all personal wishes are averaged into one team-wide tree. I like this approach more than pure democracy or dictatorship since it poses a good tradeoff of both issues outlined above. However, in the sum not much changes: The average solution will still prevent unorthodox strategys in every game where the players of a team have a roughly similar skill and newbes are still mostly excluded from the decision making.
There's a completely new issue introduced by the tradeoff: Public teams that consist of a few extremely good and many inexperienced players will have a significant advantage over teams with players of about equal strength, since a dictatorship decision will always be more specialized and thus efficient than that of a democracy. (For a completely made up example, if half of the latter team prefers energy and the other half plasma weapons, they will have both lasgun and flame thrower but neither pulse rifle nor lucifer cannon.)

Now I'd like to explain why I think that personal trees can work and also be a lot of fun. Here's a possible implementation of those:

The team earns a resources such as confidence together. Each player gets to spend (if the resource doesn't deplete) or allocate (current confidence) a copy of this resource to plot a personal path through the tree. This can be done 1) once when the player joins the game, 2) once whenever a new technology can be unlocked (like Diablo 2) or, my favorite, 3) once in the beginning but altered any time which leads to a cooldown phase, where the newly chosen upgrades subsequently become available again (similar to Diablo 3).

Personal trees have some advantages over the team wide:

  • Each player can individually choose a specialized path and play out the full potential of the tech trees, without being restricted by the decision of other players.

  • Unorthodox pathes can be tried out in every game, the risk of being defeated by chosing a non-optimized tree is low since the bad decision of a single player doesn't directly influence the teammates.

  • Mostly in scrims but also in public games there is the added strategical element of varying specialization. One player could tank with heavy armor and a close range weapon while another one could scout with a helmet and a mass driver. A third player could specialize on tearing down buildables by focusing on the grenade and later on the lucifer cannon but not putting much emphasis on armor.

I'm aware of a single drawback: Unlocking buildables is a bit more problematic than with the team-wide approach. Giving each builder indidvidual choices will make a group of two coordinated builders very strong. Having players specialize on building instead of heavy weapons could be a nice way to solve this, too. Since there are just a few buildables available, I could also imagine that they are still bound to some form of stages or just available all the time (better buildings get more expensive).

Ishq wrote:

The main reason I am less favorable about personal trees is that the good players will get hugely better weapons and the worse players will stay at the bottom. They will remain irrelevant, and the game will be a battle between the people at the top. This won't be fun for everyone.

This doesn't apply when the resource that is used by individual players is gained by the team, which I would take as a premise to personal trees for that very reason.

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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by kharnov »

Keep separate what team performance and individual performance give you. Whatever you do by yourself should advance your personal capabilities, by giving you better weapons or alien forms. However, the base is used by the team as a whole, and as such, your team performance should affect how many buildings and what types can be built. On another note, if the unlocking isn't permanent and you have to keep killing things to keep up your unlocked weapons/aliens, then at that point you might as well just get rid of credits to begin with, and replace that mechanic with time and your own performance working against you.

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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by Viech »

Anything is done by individuals, the question is whether an individual success should reward the whole team or just the player in question. Currently killing players gives personal resources and killing buildables gives team resources. If the team resource can be used by each player individually, that doesn't change the fact that a single player's actions helped the whole team. There is nothing like a team performance (atleast nothing that we would currently measure).

Apart from what Ishq said, another reason against using the personal success to unlock upgrades is that it won't be possible to join in the middle of a match anymore.

What I have in mind is something like the current confidence system but every player can define his or her own stages according to the personal tech tree.

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Re: Tech/Evolution Trees

Post by Anomalous »

Killing enemy players gives both personal and team resources – I don't see why that should be exclusively either. Destroying enemy buildings doesn't need to benefit just the team either.

As for unlocking – once unlocked, stays unlocked for the rest of the current game, but could become unavailable again…? And once some percentage (at most 50%) of your team has unlocked some upgrade, it could become available to all on your team.

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