General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Talk about anything related to Unvanquished.
Post Reply
SeanCJ
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:31 pm UTC

General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Post by SeanCJ »

So very importantly, and first off, I'm thankful to the people that have kept this going, and put in so many improvements during the time I've been looking more closely into the project. I'm pretty certain that I'm going to be forgetting people if I start listing, so apologies to anyone I miss, but here goes, nevertheless:

For the longest time to me it's been you, Illwieckz that has been keeping things going and holding things together here - and from what I saw, Afontain, Lautre and Gireen, you kept company and lent a hand for most of the time along the way.
Freem, it would have been hard to miss you in the chats, and your AI work (and less visible refactoring) has certainly had - and continues to have - a massive impact on the regular playerbase.
Part of the reason I said I'm probably going to forget people is that up until recently that was it for those I was aware of doing stuff here :P :/ .
But of course Sweet0 and cu-kai , you two keep yourself busy giving players a place to call home (by running, updating and also importantly, sticking round on servers - and more!).
And then while perturbed and Ishq, your name didn't stick to me from following chats, I now know a little bit about the work you've been doing "under the hood" on the game and engine - both on improvements and new features as well as fixing existing bugs that turn up.
Finally - I guess honorable mention :) - Viech I'm looking forward to what you'll be bringing to the game :) - a few years down the road from when you and others first built it.

So that was the roll-call I guess :P , but I also have a wish list - things I'd like to see happen going forward (and am more than willing to lend a hand putting into place).
I'll try to keep it short, and just go for bullets - happy to expand on any of this if people want some more explanation. I would love to have:

* A conflict resolution method / process
* Some kind of idea for onboarding new contributors
* A website that reflects the current state of the project (ie, an up to date website)
* Some clarity on who/what makes up the team, and how decisions for the project are made
* A place where the steps that go into making a release are sketched out (publicly, if possible)

I have two motivations for these suggestions: One is I love the game, and I'd like to contribute to it - but while - like I've mentioned above, overall progress in general is great, the friction here is driving me off. The other is I think the project would benefit from these things - I believe overall it would help getting things improved and growing the game.
(yes - I realise these are all "meta" issues. I'm also convinced it makes a difference whether/how you have these meta issues addressed; by putting in a bit of extra leg work over "just going with the flow" - as attractive as I can see that is :P).

Thanks for your time, and curious on what people's thoughts are - and how / whether people are open to some of the suggestions.

User avatar
Sweet
Dretch
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:22 am UTC

Re: General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Post by Sweet »

Some kind of idea for onboarding new contributors

That might be a long document if covering every possible thing to contribute to. What would you like to do?

The only thing I could find is this: https://wiki.unvanquished.net/wiki/Contributing

I'd like to contribute to it - but while - like I've mentioned above, overall progress in general is great, the friction here is driving me off

Don't judge this project's mode of cooperation by some emotional discussions. You would get a distorted impression. I have never had any friction with any other contributor. But I should add that I only made small contributions yet.

User avatar
killing time
Programmer
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:55 am UTC

Re: General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Post by killing time »

What's wrong with the website exactly?

Regarding releases you can look at this checklist

SeanCJ
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:31 pm UTC

Re: General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Post by SeanCJ »

Thanks both of you for your replies!

I'll take them step by step :).

Sweet wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 8:46 am UTC

That might be a long document if covering every possible thing to contribute to. [...]
The only thing I could find is this: https://wiki.unvanquished.net/wiki/Contributing

Ah, that document is actually a good way along what I was suggesting (for a couple of my bullets even). I think I missed it cause it's only linked from "Coding -> Contributing" (and I wasn't looking to do that :P ).

Sweet wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 8:46 am UTC

Don't judge this project's mode of cooperation by some emotional discussions. You would get a distorted impression. [...}

Two things on this. For one, working on a game is something I want to do for fun - and for me, that means engaging with others in a (at least mostly) relaxed and friendly way (that might be more important to me then for others).

The other side - sure, where people are involved, they'll have different views, and if this thing is important to them, then conflict is normal. My impression is that if its not clear how decisions are made, then people are more likely to get emotional though - after all, the outcome of the argument might mean the decision is made (more or less arbitrarily) in the way they don't want it to go, right?
I'd think people might be more at ease if you eg had something like this: Gameplay changes are suggested at a certain location, 1 weeks time for discussion, then team votes whether to test or not, there is a rough timeframe for testing, and finally a vote whether to integrate in "main" or not).

SeanCJ
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:31 pm UTC

Re: General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Post by SeanCJ »

killing time wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 10:04 am UTC

What's wrong with the website exactly?

Again, I was not very clear I guess: The website as a whole I think is really good (so thank you here as well to anyone I may have missed!).
So there's one big thing that jars me though, and then there's a couple little things I noticed a while ago (but didn't really know where to go with them :P - guess I'll just throw those into a doc somewhere and link to it in a minute - Edit: here are my old little things to update ).
The big thing is this: https://unvanquished.net/join-us/ - I'll quote:

Contact

We are always looking to expand our team, and currently we would like to fill several positions to help bring us closer to beta next year. [...]

If you are interested, feel free to email our recruitment manager directly at apply@unvanquished.net [...]

I already pointed Illwieckz and freem to that section :P .

killing time wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 10:04 am UTC

Regarding releases you can look at this checklist

Ah, thats perfect :). That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, thank you!

(Also - when I was just looking, I noticed the "About" page actually has a team listing quite like I mentioned in my original post - but it seems somewhat out of date as well, I think?).

Last edited by SeanCJ on Sun Apr 09, 2023 5:02 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Gireen
Graphic Designer
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:26 pm UTC
Clan: [DoH]
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Post by Gireen »

I don't think there is much real conflict, one could think otherwise by listening to our designated grumpy old man, but he also likes to exaggerate :grin:
But that's also a part of the unv family, there are voices of different amounts of considerateness and opposing opinions that assemble to build something together.
And for a game community i think that is as friendly as it can get :smile:

SeanCJ wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:13 am UTC

I'd think people might be more at ease if you eg had something like this: Gameplay changes are suggested at a certain location, 1 weeks time for discussion, then team votes whether to test or not, there is a rough timeframe for testing, and finally a vote whether to integrate in "main" or not).

https://github.com/Unvanquished/gameplay
The timelimits are not enforced cause there is currently no need for it whiteout a flood of issues, and some discussions spanning over several month

fear ma engrish :granger:

SeanCJ
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:31 pm UTC

Re: General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Post by SeanCJ »

Hmm. I'm afraid I disagree with you on the question of Conflict. Although in general, I do have the feeling people make an effort to stay friendly with each other.

(But yes, I have been in other communities where I have felt more comfortable, tbh.).

Anyway - The Gameplay tracker / process is kinda what I meant in that regard you're right :D. I think it needs updating to actually match with existing practice though, else it kind of has not so much value :/ .
Also - Gameplay decisions are only one (small part) of decision making (I only chose it as an example, actually :P).

All in all though, there is more here and there than I had realised! I'll try to draw it together, and then maybe push out an "updated" request - of things I'd like to see happen :).

User avatar
illwieckz
Project Head
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:22 pm UTC
Location: France
Contact:

Re: General thoughts on Unvanquished - project wise

Post by illwieckz »

freem wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:47 pm UTC

About the conflict thing: I don't think it can be helped much, since the project has been without a clear direction for few years.

There are limits to what can be expected. Let's take an example, we're both French you and me and subject to French labor code (code du travail). I'm actually publicly mentioned as a head of this project. If for example you would be able to prove there is a subordination link (un lien de subordination) between you and me, you would have the ability to request your contribution to be turned into a permanent employment contract (contrat à durée indéterminée) with a legal obligation of salary and retroactive compensation, and I would have to find that money.

That's why for example I only invite people to do things but never give any order. Direction can be expressed, but direction is not enforceable, it would not be legal.

It's already very hard to be followed on simple clear direction statement like “we need text-based navcon to be implemented”. People may say “we need a bigger vision than that”, but how can bigger vision be followed if simple things are not? In the end people do what they like to do, and it's fine. Anyway there is no legal way to enforce any direction statement, and no one is there to have his work being enforced.

This comment is licensed under cc ​​by 4 and antecedent.

Post Reply