make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

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GORE
Dretch
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by GORE »

Almost two years have passed and hundreds of lines of code have been made but still nothing. Who cares if a bot behaves strange? Who cares if a player uses the bot icon in their name?
Have you even once tried to listen to what the players want? It's too late now this game is forgotten and uninstalled. :thumbdown:

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Sweet
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by Sweet »

Who cares if a bot behaves strange?

I do. Even if they still behave strange, you could help by testing the experimental bot commands on map testing server.

Who cares if a player uses the bot icon in their name?

Refactoring the UI to include a nice handling of bots will take a little while, at least. For now, all we have is that listplayers marks bots as such. See https://github.com/Unvanquished/Unvanquished/pull/2276 for a somewhat failed attempt.

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Gireen
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by Gireen »

GORE wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:13 pm UTC

It's too late now this game is forgotten and uninstalled. :thumbdown:

Just saying since this topic was started, two years ago, game activity has quadrupled or so (at some times even more). :grin:
Image

fear ma engrish :granger:

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freem
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by freem »

GORE wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:13 pm UTC

Have you even once tried to listen to what the players want? It's too late now this game is forgotten and uninstalled. :thumbdown:

Actually, many players in-game are quite thankful for the AI improvements.

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GORE
Dretch
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by GORE »

freem wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:42 pm UTC

A naked human with a rifle is easily able to kill a tyrant in his base.

A dretch or a granger in their base needs a lot of suicides to kill a battlesuit user, feeding said user.

I think this is a problem.

This. Look at date. What has been changed? Nothing. No hope for this game anymore.

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illwieckz
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by illwieckz »

A naked human with a rifle is easily able to kill a tyrant in his base.

Tyrant efficiency was improved, reducing the need for ultra precise hit to make huge damage to humans.
Naked human killing tyrant in a base means the tyrant doesn't fight back.

A dretch or a granger in their base needs a lot of suicides to kill a battlesuit user, feeding said user.

Advanced granger can now slow down all players including battlesuit, and dretch was already able to do 16 damage per battlesuit headshot, this being far more easier to do if a granger slowed down the battlesuit.

In fact we actually had to reduce the granger trapping mechanism because people thought battlesuit had no chance against it.

GORE wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:43 pm UTC

This. Look at date.

Look at the date, twice.

GORE wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:43 pm UTC

What has been changed? Nothing.

Those are exactly the issues that were addressed and changes that were done since that comment was made.

This comment is licensed under cc ​​by 4 and antecedent.

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GORE
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by GORE »

Granger trapping mechanism was nerfed because one server admin cried about it. not "People". If you think Tyrant is fixed now you havent played the game. Game is unbalanced and has been many years. But dream on. Huge disappointment. Uninstalled long time ago because devs dont listen.

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freem
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by freem »

GORE wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:54 am UTC

Uninstalled long time ago because devs dont listen.

I wonder how you could test the game, know about balance or about what players actually say if you uninstalled the game, let me quote you: "long ago".

This whole thread is clearly drifting off-topic, polluting a real topic.

An important thing to note is that there are a few mod hosters around now, mods being updated depending on people's IRL constraints. In those last 2 years, I can count 4 people implementing their mod, and renting a server to host it, of which many ideas and improvements made it into upstream: gireen's, mine, sweet's, and kai's.

While it is true that nothing talked in this thread has been implemented or experimented with, I would like to keep this on-topic, so please, let's talk about the OP issue:
GORE, which of the solutions discussed here would you prefer? Or maybe you would prefer a different one?
As a reminder, the original topic is not about the stupid tyrant, but about low aliens being unable to defend their base. And aliens spawn as dretches or grangers. So, maybe another solution would be to be able to spawn as useful aliens instead of needing to spawn as dretch, go in the annoyingly slow evolve menu and select dragoon or tyrant, while the base is attacked. Seasoned players will have bindings to do this faster, of course, but good FPS games do not require people to know that kind of stuff.

For now, the ideas, which are not mutually exclusive while all relying on poison, are:

1: make poison ignore armor
2: give poison per-class debuff
3: additive poisons, that is, effect would increase with number of (poisoned) hits

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Gireen
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by Gireen »

GORE wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:43 pm UTC

This. Look at date. What has been changed? Nothing. No hope for this game anymore.

Gireen wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:10 pm UTC

You can look for a future news post that proves you wrong. :bsuit:

https://unvanquished.net/upcoming-gameplay-changes/

The easier evolving made base defense much better. Before that aliens had to leave the base to evolve when it was under attack due to the close humans.

Dretch vs Battlesuit is still a problem which is not so easy to address, cause if small aliens can defeat the strongest human unit whats the point in having it?

@freem there was also the anyteam mod from perturbed and afontains juggernaut mod

fear ma engrish :granger:

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freem
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Re: make low aliens dangerous in their base, even to battlesuits

Post by freem »

Gireen wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:49 pm UTC

@freem there was also the anyteam mod from perturbed and afontains juggernaut mod

Exact, so even more, but I do not think changes from those mods are being used upstream? Maybe I'm wrong here, and this does not lower the value of those mods (I would like to get the HvH back, and the jugg mod is a fun thing I'd like to see upstreamed, too, for it makes a nice change from the usual gameplay).

As for the dretch vs battlesuit problem, I think the main problem I see is that it's much, much easier to destroy an alien base than a human one, and the advertised alien's mobility feels a bit of a lie to me, especially for the tyrant: smaller size of heavily armored humans allow them to move between crates and all, spreading havoc with lucifer blasts and grenades in the process, while aliens can't folow them... expect if they're dretches or mantis, which are useless in those situations. The base won't defend itself neither, in most maps it is impossible for an alien base to kill even a bot naked with an smg.
All this needs to be compared with how hard it is to destroy a single human building.

Of course, no undefended base can resist against a very skilled alien player, but that's the problem I see: aliens are reserved to skilled players, and very punishing for newbies, in my opinion. This "dretch vs bsuit" is part of the problem, same as the "smg vs tyrant" problem (which is inverted: it's easy to deal LOT of damages to a tyrant with a smg, even to finish them off).
It seems some people consider me good at aliens (me, I consider myself a decent alien player, not a good one, exactly for what I'll explain after this), but in many places I have hard time to destroy bases, especially when they are full of rocketpods well placed. I never have this problem with alien bases.
One important element is: humans get their most powerful defense at stage 1, while aliens only get barbs (the weapon that allows them to really destroy bases, other stuff are too weak, range's too small) at stage 4.
Poison is also pretty useless against medium armors or battlesuits, despite it being only available mid-game.

Maybe BSuit, lucifer canon and Tyrant should be OP. But then, all of them should be OP, and tyrant is notoriously weak.

So, yes, I think low level aliens should be more efficient at defending their base, even against high tier humans. Of course, humans still need to be able to destroy alien bases, it would be pretty bad if aliens also had an incentive to camp (which is what humans do most of the time, and I consider this a bad thing).

The question of "how" though... is why I initially opened this thread: I do not know how. I will give a try at the easier solution soon, that is, make poison ignore armor, and reduce it to 3 DpS instead of the 5 currently.

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