Humans are complementary. What about aliens?

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freem
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Humans are complementary. What about aliens?

Postby freem » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:06 pm UTC

Humans have many valid tactical choices:

* mobility versus resilience (jetpack+armour vs battlesuit)
* slow but accurate high shots vs close fight weapons (mass driver, las gun, pulse rifle vs most weaons)

This is nice, and fun, and combine nicely, making human teams fun to play.

But, what about aliens?
I feel as if aliens evolution is just about becoming bigger and bigger, to have more hp and higer damage rate.
I know, marauder and dragoon have different gameplay, but marauders can't damage battlesuit, and do little damages to medium armors. As for mantis, I think it's not even worth mentioning it.

Since aliens must all be in melee to deal fair amount of damages, they will often hit friend, or hinder their allies moves because the bigger's the better. They can hardly work in team.
If that is intended, fine, why not. But I think this should be thought about, especially since collisions in unvanquished are basically, "aim at this volume. You don't hit model? Well, you still hit it.". That helps humans, because aliens have various sizes, but it plays clearly against aliens, since they must be big (and skilled) to deal damages.

What's your opinions on that?
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Gireen
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Re: Humans are complementary. What about aliens?

Postby Gireen » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:57 am UTC

Aliens can cooperate as Adv Goon sniping and Tyrant defending/blocking enemys Adv Marauder can harass zap and depleate laser weapons or jetpack i think.
and in 0.52 the granger can trapp enemys
fear ma engrish :granger:
freem
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Re: Humans are complementary. What about aliens?

Postby freem » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:41 pm UTC

Gireen wrote:Aliens can cooperate as Adv Goon sniping and Tyrant defending/blocking enemys Adv Marauder can harass zap and depleate laser weapons or jetpack i think.
and in 0.52 the granger can trapp enemys


> Adv Goon sniping and Tyrant defending/blocking enemys

Tyrant will also prevent the goon to flee. Or the goon will prevent tyrant to attack or retreat.
Barbs takes ages to regenerate, and humans have bigger range and higher DpS. I personally put myself between a goon's barb and mgturrets when there's an attack, because even a single miss of the turret means, turret is saved, and it's very, very unlike I'll take 2 barbs, so medkit can easily kick in.

> Adv Marauder can harass zap and depleate laser weapons or jetpack

AFAIK Jetpack is depleted by any damage taken, not because of zapping. And the amount of deplete varies according to damages, which means a medium armour human will be harder to make jetpack depleting.

> in 0.52 the granger can trapp enemys

Yes. This one works... on defense, because granger is so, so SLOW.

I still think aliens can hardly work together, especially considering the fact their main attacks are melee, and that they will often hit their friends, dealing vast amount of damages. This is only true for humans spamming lucifer. That means, mostly bots.
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Gireen
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Re: Humans are complementary. What about aliens?

Postby Gireen » Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:18 pm UTC

Tyrant will also prevent the goon to flee. Or the goon will prevent tyrant to attack or retreat.

Most corridors are wide enough for both only doors are the bottleneck. It requires some teamwork to be efficient but it can work quiet well.

Barbs takes ages to regenerate, and humans have bigger range and higher DpS. I personally put myself between a goon's barb and mgturrets when there's an attack, because even a single miss of the turret means, turret is saved, and it's very, very unlike I'll take 2 barbs, so medkit can easily kick in.

How effective adv dragoons are is probably a different topic :tongue:

I still think aliens can hardly work together, especially considering the fact their main attacks are melee, and that they will often hit their friends.

I think it requires just more practice. But necessarily-equals pr could also improve this
fear ma engrish :granger:
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Re: Humans are complementary. What about aliens?

Postby Dracone » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:00 pm UTC

Aliens and humans have differences in optimal communication/coordination that differ in somewhat creative ways. Aliens do run into space issues, but everything then revolves around positional tactics, timing, and watching their health. Humans don't have the same space concerns amongst themselves, but target prioritization is key or else they don't eliminate threats quickly enough, something that isn't as important for aliens since they're stronger if they divide and conquer, not to mention the risks of attacking the same target and interfering in some way with your teammates.

It's always been this way on some level since back in Tremulous, just from the core gameplay ideas. Humans have the easier time of communicating or reading a situation with regard to what they should be aiming at, but at the same time they get punished to more of an extreme for the slip-ups that can still happen in that department and are more prone to panic since they're fundamentally more "organized". Aliens need to be more in sync and make varied decisions on the go, but their abilities contribute well towards disruption and each member being able to make decisions on what they're doing, which oddly enough means that an alien team fighting well looks less like a hivemind than the humans do.

Your original point is still valid though, since the aliens don't have as much reason to be complementary on the "loadout" level as humans might. I just have to imagine it's a tough problem in terms of design because of the tactical differences I mentioned.
freem
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Re: Humans are complementary. What about aliens?

Postby freem » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:22 pm UTC

Dracone wrote:Your original point is still valid though, since the aliens don't have as much reason to be complementary on the "loadout" level as humans might. I just have to imagine it's a tough problem in terms of design because of the tactical differences I mentioned.


I don't say there's an easy way to prevent this. I mostly wanted to see other's opinions on the matter, and maybe see if some idea could pop out of someone's mind :)

To be fair, a very old gameplay document for unvanquished mentioned having evolution trees for aliens, so there were ideas already, and I think this might be fun to implement and play: humans would have complete freedom in their loadouts, and aliens could have specialized warriors with different roles, which would always be relevant, even in late game versus battlesuits and medium armors.
I think the current aliens already each have their own movement style, which is good, but most notably, the wallwallkers become completely irrelevant when humans unlock medium armors, especially is they equip some people with radars. Marauders, even advanced, deal too little damages to humans in medium, and I won't speak about battlesuits, so they're mostly ok against packed buildings which are not defended. I think this is sad.

On the other side, humans got armors, up to medium, which can combine with radars (always useful) or jetpacks (always nice on some maps). If neither radar not jetpack is useful on situation, they can go for battlesuit, which is... very strong.
With those, they can then choose various weapons. If we keep on the higher tier weapons, there are 3 weapons with different tactical uses, of those, only flamer is less relevant... against tyrants, but always very powerful against any base.
And I have not even mentioned the grenades.

I wish there would at least be some ideas to give aliens some choice in late games (and to fix the tyrant, but that's another issue), so that maybe some people could try experimenting around said ideas.

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