Redefining alien movement

Request new features or present your ideas.
Post Reply
User avatar
kharnov
Granger
Posts: 1851
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:54 pm UTC
Clan: GT
Location: New York City

Redefining alien movement

Post by kharnov »

Now that we've gotten dretch pounce in, I'm in love with it. The style feels like it fits the dretch perfectly. It seriously enhances the play style of the dretch while allowing it to deal with several situations that formerly screwed it over, and at last I feel like the dretch is finally a match for the rifle in terms of usefulness.

The question is, what other sorts of movement would we like to play with? I feel that movement, and potentially movement-based attacks should be an integral part of the alien team. There's just something so bland about standard melee attacks. What is interesting about walking up to somebody and holding down your mouse button a few times? New types of movement would not only enhance the alien play experience from a stylistic viewpoint, but would also be more friendly to new players while allowing for greater diversity in play style. It would present new uses for aliens that were not previously possible.

Take, for instance, the dretch. Before, the dretch was limited to hiding in shadows and carefully sneaking up on players. If you were spotted or made the mistake of going down a long hallway, you were instantly dead. Nothing was going to save you from being shot at, unless you had the benefit of cover to run into. This made gameplay extremely frustrating for new players. I myself can confess to avoiding aliens for a while when I first began Tremulous, and I know I'm not the only one. Everyone wants to play humans when they start out, but I feel that new movement types can be what we've been searching for all these months. With the dretch pounce, you now have not only a means of quickly leaping into safety, but a way to trip up human opponents by rapidly moving around, and even over them. The lethality of the dretch has not been altered, but its survivability has been improved drastically. I am very interested in seeing what this turns into as we continue our gameplay modifications.

Now, let's consider other alien forms. I feel that the two best alien forms are probably the marauder and the dragoon, at least from a design standpoint. In terms of gameplay, they feel very complete. Both of them can survive and deal great amounts of damage, but why? Look at their special movement types. The marauder can effortlessly jump around walls and make it exceedingly difficult to hit with most weapons, while the dragoon can leap over pretty much anything and rapidly close gaps with its pounce. At the same time, let's consider the other two aliens we haven't mentioned so far, the basilisk and the tyrant. Both of them have been plagued by gameplay issues for a long time. The basilisk is considered one of the more difficult forms to play as, while the tyrant has been subjected to nerfing that has removed much of the fun of playing it. Granted, the tyrant trample was possibly overpowered in the past, but I feel that a strong trample is kind of the point. It's meant to break up crowds of weak humans. Take that out, and it just turns into a walking sack of hit points with a strong but boring melee attack. Trample takes too long to charge up to escape from any meaningful close-range combat.

While we revise the gameplay roles of the basilisk and tyrant, let's factor movement into our considerations. What can we give them? Or, if they already have a special type of movement, how can we alter it to be more useful? Perhaps we can swap it out with something else? Also, think of the two other aliens, the granger and the vulture. Obviously, the vulture is entirely new territory, considering it did not exist in Tremulous. What we do with it remains to be seen.

User avatar
Viech
Project Head
Posts: 2139
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:50 pm UTC
Location: Berlin

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by Viech »

I agree with pretty much all of this.

The marauder and dragoon are well designed and complete classes, not only because of their fun and easy to use movement attacks but also because they have a great degree of flexibility. Both can fight against all forms of humans, from naked to battlesuit and they can even survive a lucifer cannon wielder if used wisely. Both their advanced and normal forms can attack buildables and the advanced even has a ranged attack, which is necessary to tear down turtle bases.

On the other hand, the basilisk and tyrant are rather inflexible. The lisk's special attack doesn't work against a battlesuit and has no effect on buildables. Its primary attack is weak compared to that of other classes and its low hitpoints let it die quickly. I won't counter that it can be strong in certain situations, but it isn't capable of reacting to any situation as the mara and goon pretty much can.

The tyrant is still strong against players but its role in attacking bases is mostly that of an overpriced kamikaze fighter. Its inability to quickly get out of the turrets range or lock-on makes it only useful against bases with low defense.

I'm convinced that giving both classes support roles like the basilisk healing aura is the wrong approach. I share the philosophy behind Diablo characters: Unlike classic RPG classes, all of them are damage dealers in the first place. Support skills are mostly secondary skills and no character is helpless without a party. Still the combination of different classes and support abilities can make a difference. Before we think about pure teamplay abilities, we should make each alien class self-sufficient and flexible.

For the lisk I want a complete redesign of its gameplay role. I have some very vague ideas what could be done about it but I'd like to use this thread for unbiased brainstorming.

I didn't put much thought into the tyrant yet but since agility is obviously none of its strengthes I would consider giving it a ranged attack. Maybe one that is not precise but brutal. I can imagine a handful of buzzing insects coming out of its mouth when it growls, drawing chaotic circles in the air, being slightly attracted by enemies and exploding on impact. Something that makes humans want to take cover.

Responsible for: Arch Linux package & torrent distribution, Parpax (map), Chameleon (map texture editor), Sloth (material file generator), gameplay design & programming, artistic direction

User avatar
Khaoz
Graphic Designer
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:41 am UTC
Location: On the roof

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by Khaoz »

Mmmmmm the lisk has far too low health and escape methods to be worth the evos imo.

I'm not sure why the health was reduced by so much from 1.1 as it was already pretty difficult to survive with.

User avatar
kharnov
Granger
Posts: 1851
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:54 pm UTC
Clan: GT
Location: New York City

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by kharnov »

One of my suggestions is to give the basilisk some sort of dash ability. You would use it in a similar fashion to the dretch pounce, although it moves you in a straight line over the ground only instead of lifting you into the air. It would also work on walls, of course. The point of the dash is to allow the basilisk to make use of local stealth when ambushing humans. Since it's larger than the dretch and much more easily spotted and slower, a dash would allow it to quickly catch up to humans that run by, so that it can perform surprise attacks. It would also give the basilisk a way to quickly run away from combat, making the most use of its added health over the dretch.

User avatar
chris
Modeler
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:34 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by chris »

Wallwalking should be easier. I actually never used it in trem except on simple custom maps, but whenever there is more geometry than 4 plain walls and a ceiling its awful to do.

User avatar
kharnov
Granger
Posts: 1851
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:54 pm UTC
Clan: GT
Location: New York City

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by kharnov »

I agree with you there, wallwalking as it is feels extremely disorienting. It's not very easy to use except to move yourself around and dodge a few attacks, but by the time you have to resort to that you're likely going to die anyway. I would say that the mechanics involved should receive some special attention. For instance, perhaps a dretch pouncing off a wall should propel itself in the direction of its view, which would make it much more intuitive to attack with. If you aim at a human, you'll land right on top of him.

User avatar
Viech
Project Head
Posts: 2139
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:50 pm UTC
Location: Berlin

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by Viech »

kharnov wrote:

For instance, perhaps a dretch pouncing off a wall should propel itself in the direction of its view, which would make it much more intuitive to attack with. If you aim at a human, you'll land right on top of him.

Doesn't yet work with entities (and really not sure if it should), but this is pretty much what I did the last days (309ae53, ed355da, d3f5717).

In short, when pouncing off a wall or the ceiling, the dretch already attempts to reach the exact spot you are aiming at with regards to the fixed initial velocity of the off-wall pounce. It will only jump in the direction of your recticle if you can't reach the target point with a trajectory. Get on the dev server, walk on walls and try it out!

Also the one thing I don't agree with in your original post is that the dretches lethality didn't increase. It increased significantly as the dretch now has a completely new way to quickly reach the head of its enemy. For a saw and possibly also a flame thrower wielding human, the dretch is now deadlier than it has ever been before.

Responsible for: Arch Linux package & torrent distribution, Parpax (map), Chameleon (map texture editor), Sloth (material file generator), gameplay design & programming, artistic direction

User avatar
JOURNEYMAN
Dragoon
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:42 pm UTC

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by JOURNEYMAN »

For wall walking, I suggested on the IdeaTorrent that the all wall walkers have some form of artificial horizon to help with the orientation. Also, what I find annoying when wall walking is that when you are on a ceiling and drop down on the floor, you are facing the opposite direction.

Grab reality by the balls and squeeeeze!

Image

User avatar
Viech
Project Head
Posts: 2139
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:50 pm UTC
Location: Berlin

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by Viech »

freem wrote:

Saying the dretch is not more dangerous than previously must be pure irony... More hp and speed for a pure contact class, which is very small makes it indeed more dangerous.

It seems like the 35 hp alone make it a fair opponent to a naked human. I still don't know whether the pounce should be toned down once more or given to an advanced dretch. Right now, it makes the dretch far too deadly and personally I would pay an evo to get it, even if my health would stay at 35.

freem wrote:

For basilisk, I think that, yes, it's easy to kill for now. But it could become damn useful with his support abilities, which can do 3 things: healing mates, block enemies, and something which does not seem to be used for now, but disabling enemy bases. Remember: Viech made it consuming power (but I have no idea about how many?).

The tesla needs 15, all other structures need 10 power. The normal lisk consumes 13, the advanced version 16, but both have a smaller range than buildables. Both lisks can unpower any buildable that is not in range of a reactor or repeater.
Still, this is just another completely random ability that has been given to the lisk in order to make it useful, with neglible success. The design of the lisk as a whole is flawed. The key problem is that it lacks flexibility. As outlined above, the lisk is strong in certain situations but almost completely useless in a lot of important scenarios. The power consumption didn't change anything about that (in fact, it follows the same flawed design: The lisk is now stronger against small forwards but the new skill is entirely useless against 99% of all main bases).

freem wrote:

If you want to make it more dangerous, I think something which would complete his role nicely would be some sort of chameleon move, which could make it a stronger ambusher. 2 effects needs to be made for that: making it copy wall's colors of course (but not something perfect so that humans could see them anyway, that would just make them harder to aim), but also hiding from human helmets.

Partial stealth doesn't work in a competitive multiplayer game. Either something is completely invisble (the entity isn't sent to enemy clients at all), which will most likely lead to technical difficulties such as out-of-sync collision detection, or it is completely visible. Making enemys harder to see will result in a single thing: Every non-newbe player will "tweak" settings so everything is visible and the game looks awful.

freem wrote:

Now, the alien which really needs more power, and would have needed it even before the dretch, is the granger. They are slow, have the weakest weapons, and when "evolved" they have a powerless ranged attack. Except with poison, they can do nothing even against a human builder. The only good point they have could be the wall climbing they acquire when upgrading, but it have no match against a jetpack...

In Tremulous builders were not supposed to fight at all, so the bite and blaster are more of a gimmick, even though skilled players can defend themselves with the latter from time to time. On the other hand the human builder can't flee, which is even worse than doing little damage.

freem wrote:

the ranged weapon of the granger is […] damn weak.

If you directly hit a human it will slow down as if it got in creep range. The granger barb is really just something that can be used to prevent boredom while the base is under attack. Slowing down humans that are close to an acid tube and/or poisioning them does some damage after all. This again proves that in Tremulous, the granger was not supposed to fight.

The question whether builders should take part in combat should be discussed in another thread.

Responsible for: Arch Linux package & torrent distribution, Parpax (map), Chameleon (map texture editor), Sloth (material file generator), gameplay design & programming, artistic direction

User avatar
Viech
Project Head
Posts: 2139
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:50 pm UTC
Location: Berlin

Re: Redefining alien movement

Post by Viech »

The dretch pounce was too strong, especially in combination with the increased health. Since it is without doubt an awesome feature I decided to give it to an advanced dretch, that also has more health (35 → 40, still mdriver one hit) and a higher health regeneration rate and costs one (new) evo for now. It'll be up on the dev server for testing soon.

For the basilisk redesign, I started this thread.

Responsible for: Arch Linux package & torrent distribution, Parpax (map), Chameleon (map texture editor), Sloth (material file generator), gameplay design & programming, artistic direction

Post Reply