Different lose conditions

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Gireen
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Different lose conditions

Postby Gireen » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:52 pm UTC

At the moment a team loses if there are no spawns and living players left.
My suggestion would be to add different conditions to loose a game similar to normal rts games.
Which could also be combined or toggleable .
That a team loses if one thing happens:
-no main building
-no spawns
-no leeches
-negative buildpoints
fear ma engrish :granger:
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cu-kai
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Re: Different lose conditions

Postby cu-kai » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:33 pm UTC

I like the sound of this. If the "no main building" condition is enabled, presumably your intention would be to give a configurable grace period to allow the team to rebuild it?

There was once a mod for Tremulous which made non-essential buildings randomly explode until the bps were positive. This was part of the Refinery/Creep Colony system which directly preceded the drill/leech system...

As for the "No Leech" mode, how would that work when most (if not all) maps don't include a leech by default as part of the layout?
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illwieckz
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Re: Different lose conditions

Postby illwieckz » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:03 am UTC

Gireen wrote:negative buildpoints


Beware than when deconstructing a drill/leech to move it a bit just to protect it a bit more or to give some % more efficiency, in the meantime the build point count can be negative for some seconds…

cu-kai wrote:As for the "No Leech" mode, how would that work when most (if not all) maps don't include a leech by default as part of the layout?


Especially the legacy maps ported from Tremulous would not have any drill/leech at all unless someone added them at the time of porting.
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Gireen
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Re: Different lose conditions

Postby Gireen » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:38 pm UTC

cu-kai wrote:I like the sound of this. If the "no main building" condition is enabled, presumably your intention would be to give a configurable grace period to allow the team to rebuild it?

yes, maybe also making it possible to have multiple main buildings.


To be honest don't know if there are miners in default layouts :bugeyes:
That would indeed be a problem. But for official maps we can add some.
For ported maps it would require changes to the layout to play that mode.
But since its possible, with the recent changes, to overwrite the builtin layout without map source it should be still doable to extend the layouts.
Until there is a minder for every team a map would be just not available to play with that "gamemode"
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freem
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Re: Different lose conditions

Postby freem » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:42 pm UTC

I like the idea of having more loose conditions, and, to be honest, I would prefer to see __win conditions__ instead, which could be voted for at intermission (there's no such thing for now I think?).

One can take inspiration from several games. For example:

* adding a 3rd "neutral" team which must be eradicated. When it's destroyed, the team which have destroyed to most 3rd team buildings win (taken from a 7kaa in which it's possible to have such a conditions: destroy the most frytans lairs)
* Defend and control: only allow spawns to be built in specific places, and at most n spawns per spot (battlefield 2142's normal games are more or less this). No spawns and no players means defeat, as usual.
* 1st team reaching a score?
* hard time limit: the higher score wins

Of course, most of those would require map changes (and I'm unable to do that), or at least layout changes, but I don't think this should stop someone trying, especially since as said, it's possible to have custom layouts for maps.
Regarding the original ideas:

* no main building => this would require at least some code to allow moving them, because in many, many cases alien's OM is easy to destroy, especially since alien bases sucks so much before stage 2 (and even then, they're weak) and aliens would be clearly disadvantaged there, since it's really hard to destroy RC in a frontal attack compared to OM (it only requires 3 grenades, put a 4th in there in case one missed the target, and that's for the melee rush, mind you, not even trying to use the actual weapons...). Maybe something like 10s, so that you can at least move it (if it is considered that one under construction as not triggering the failure condition)
* no leeches => most maps have no miners at start. Easy to fix, sure, but I would simply have a 2min grace time at game start, it should be enough to put 2 or 3 I believe.
* negative buildpoints => aliens *must* build more often than humans, since it's so easy to destroy many of their buildings (grenade, flamer, and long range anyway). This leads faster to neg bp, but maybe it shuold be addressed another way (reducing their cost, maybe?)
* no spawns => that might be a good idea. I don't think it happens often that a team with no spawn points win anyway?
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Gireen
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Re: Different lose conditions

Postby Gireen » Tue May 11, 2021 9:58 pm UTC

freem wrote:I like the idea of having more loose conditions, and, to be honest, I would prefer to see __win conditions__ instead, which could be voted for at intermission (there's no such thing for now I think?).

Well its the same just with an opposite name. :grin:
It would be a game setting like timelimit or similar, if such things could be changed by players is a different matter.

There is room for many other win conditions that where only the most oblivious that came to my mind.
Another one could be resource hunt. Where the goal is to collect a certain amount of buildpoints.

In the end different win conditions are only another tool to influence the game flow. If it solves a problem or provides more fun it should be added, but that needs to be tryed out.
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Re: Different lose conditions

Postby freem » Sun May 16, 2021 11:11 am UTC

Gireen wrote:
freem wrote:I like the idea of having more loose conditions, and, to be honest, I would prefer to see __win conditions__ instead, which could be voted for at intermission (there's no such thing for now I think?).

Well its the same just with an opposite name. :grin:


But it's more optimistic :)

Gireen wrote:In the end different win conditions are only another tool to influence the game flow. If it solves a problem or provides more fun it should be added, but that needs to be tryed out.


Indeed. But I think that such feature would need some way for players to vote for next mode. If I remember correctly, that lack of easy mode change is a reason why PvE maps were removed years ago (and I clearly remember stuff like that, notably on the old Tremor I think)?

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