Balance changes and ideas.

[DeathByMe]

Hello, i am a long time Australia player from the server "Aussie Assault" and having played the game for several years, i play under the name "Pride", and i have noticed some things in the game that look like they require reviewing.

During the first stage of humans, the gameplay of humans was changed with a bug that happened when you crouched, causing the hit-box to lower, reducing the damage a player would take. although it is true that it was a bug, i strongly believe, after going through discussion with lots of skilled players that it should be re-implemented as a feature, the crouch action should lower damage that you take from alien attacks.
The main reason is that in close combat humans only have side jumps, and having the option to duck, and take slighty reduced damage, can be what keeps you in a fight with a dragoon.

Another thing that i have noticed is the hugely increased projectile speed for the lucifer cannon, which reduces heaps of skill with the weapon, where it used to take a lot of practise to use the Lucifer Cannon, and not once you have hit S3, the game is completely in humans favour, where the lucifer got buffed, and tyrants got nerfed. This change may have been intended to balance the game, but it has done the opposite, and has not only reduced skill needed to use the weapon, it has also completely unbalanced HS3 v AS3.

Another change that is a recent one is related to health regeneration for aliens. The tyrant used to have a regen buff, that was transferred to the basilisk, Which i believe might have some merit early game, but the idea of the tyrant is to have something tanky for the aliens, and i believe they should not have reduced the Max HP for the tyrant, and i believe the tyrant should also get the Regen Aura back, whether or not basilisk keeps it, because the tyrant is a tank, and should have the utility of a tank. maybe even it is required that the damage of the tyrant is nerfed, the HP should not be the target of any sort of nerf for the tyrant.

This was writen quickly, and may be riddled with error, but please let this be open for discussion, as i believe it is a big issue.
i have more balance feedback that many believe requires attention, but i leave that for when these issues have been reviewed/addressed.

Thank, Deathbyme.

[qwerty]

THESE ARNT IDEAS, YOU'RE JUST TROLLING!!!

[Khaoz]

All of these change seem pretty justified.
ignore qwerty, obvious troll (1 post, name is qwerty)

[Asvarox]

I strongly disagree with all the proposals/complaints.

1) 1.1 crouch thing was extremely dodgy. Didn't really make much sense, most aliens were like WTF when they first stepped by the bug. It's great that's fixed.
Implementing this as a feature would just make the game more boring. What's hard/exciting in just "bunkering" yourself by holding c? You are supposed to evade aliens' attacks if you can't - learn how to. It's what should be "keeping you in a fight with a dragoon"

2) At least for me, the new projectile speed was never really bothering. In Unvanquished IIRC it's now the stronger the projectile is, the slower it is. Not sure if fully charged one is slower than in Tremulous GPP or same.

3) Slow heal ratio of rants helped getting rid of that annoying rant camping at humans base entrances. And yes, tyrant is probably supposed to be a tank that crushes humans, not an ultimate weapon that crushes tons of humans, heals itself in ridiculous speed and also provides the healing to other aliens. 1.1 rant was WAY WAY WAY WAY overpowered, besides trample, it's probably the most balanced class in Tremulous GPP. Perfectly capable of killing a group of weaker humans, can also stand against humans with more expensive sets, kill few rets and that's about it.

[DeathByMe]

2) Putting it in a way the may be put is an easier light asvarox, what has been nerfed/buffed for humans, and what has been nerfed/buffed for aliens?
ill start with aliens,
Nerfs: Basilisk 75>60 Rant 400>350 dretch damage, dragoon pounce damage.
buffs, S2 dragoon.

Humans
Nerfs: Crouch bug fixed
Buffs: what seems like 3x the projectile speed of lucifer, same damage. Side dodge (very insignificant, but still a buff), Jump every increased by heaps.
MD damage increased to 40 from, if im not mistaken, 35? and blaster slightly increased damage.

1.1 was very balanced, the only reason people camped a base was because of difference of skill, or unbalanced maps
you can easily keep aliens out of your base if you keep preasure on the, and not sit on turrets.

most of the changes favour humans, by a great deal

Please have a think about this.

[ViruS]

I strongly disagree with all the proposals/complaints.

1) 1.1 crouch thing was extremely dodgy. Didn't really make much sense, most aliens were like WTF when they first stepped by the bug. It's great that's fixed.
Implementing this as a feature would just make the game more boring. What's hard/exciting in just "bunkering" yourself by holding c? You are supposed to evade aliens' attacks if you can't - learn how to. It's what should be "keeping you in a fight with a dragoon"

2) At least for me, the new projectile speed was never really bothering. In Unvanquished IIRC it's now the stronger the projectile is, the slower it is. Not sure if fully charged one is slower than in Tremulous GPP or same.

3) Slow heal ratio of rants helped getting rid of that annoying rant camping at humans base entrances. And yes, tyrant is probably supposed to be a tank that crushes humans, not an ultimate weapon that crushes tons of humans, heals itself in ridiculous speed and also provides the healing to other aliens. 1.1 rant was WAY WAY WAY WAY overpowered, besides trample, it's probably the most balanced class in Tremulous GPP. Perfectly capable of killing a group of weaker humans, can also stand against humans with more expensive sets, kill few rets and that's about it.

1) I actually loved that dodgy feature as well. Keeps you alive againts tyrants and as well as in vents...
2) I am fine with the projectile speed, i dont mind the 'lowest speed' it can achieve being lowered... Thinking of which, the luci in my modded 1.1 qvm was OP close range, but as a sacrifice its minimum speed [max damage, 300] is around 350 units/s which is almost close to 1.1's value, and having the charge time upped to 2.7 seconds i'd say it was balanced.
3) Few things to note for you: Mathematically, it is extremely hard / almost impossible to even run over one human with light armour. I looked at the trem.h file and compared it to gpp and korx, Korx's was fine but unvanquished's was over-done.
I'd say gpp tyrant was WAY WAY overpowered compare to 1.1 tyrant in terms of damage, and the damage you can deal in combat is very reliant on your ping (higher ping, harder it is to hit multiple times) and in terms of health, regen is so damn slow. Maybe have the tyrant have double regen speed but i disagree with adding an 'aura' [quote---pride] because that encourages aliens to camp outside the human base, making humans camp worse.

1.1 was very balanced

I'd say wrong there, you played lagged [aussie assault 1.1]. Unvanquished will be mainly unlagged. See vanilla 1.1 unlagged servers before you say this. Wins commonly come from aliens due to the fact how easy it is to get a headshot.

---

Myself, i want to request these changes as well:
Goon barb regen time -> 20 seconds (gpp too slow, barb explosion OP)
goon barb explosion damage -> Halve it, the launching can be annoying, i've prooved it in a youtube video...
mara zap -> I know this is gonna change, so no comment here...
Mgturret -> Reduce damage to '6', its actually is balanced in my 1.1 qvm.
Mgturret spinup time -> Reduce it, its so useless againts any alien close-up. It also counteracts for the lower damage.
Rant range -> Increase, range feels somewhat shorter than a basi/mara/goon's due to the hight. It always has bothered me, even in gpp. If not, decrease range of other aliens.

[Khaoz]

Myself, i want to request these changes as well:
Goon barb regen time -> 20 seconds (gpp too slow, barb explosion OP)
goon barb explosion damage -> Halve it, the launching can be annoying, i've prooved it in a youtube video...
mara zap -> I know this is gonna change, so no comment here...
Mgturret -> Reduce damage to '6', its actually is balanced in my 1.1 qvm.
Mgturret spinup time -> Reduce it, its so useless againts any alien close-up. It also counteracts for the lower damage.
Rant range -> Increase, range feels somewhat shorter than a basi/mara/goon's due to the hight. It always has bothered me, even in gpp. If not, decrease range of other aliens.

I agree, the barb explosion (AOE) damage is ridiculous. It seems to me that someone found sniping too hard (It really wasn't if you practiced it) so they decided instead of actually having to hit someone, you can just hit in their general area...

But yeah the lucifer cannon is just ridiculous now.
I'm pretty much running around with slightly slower MD that shoots 1 charged bullet for 250 damage.
I mean even rants get scared when they see someone who has decent aim with a luci, considerring they pretty much know they are going to lose 250 health and there's nothing they can do to dodge it (unless they can hide behind something).

Lucifer cannon in 1.1 used to be a lot of fun, there was a lot more strategy involved imo.

• Like trying to lure aliens closer (whilst timing your shot) so you can get a 1 hit.
• Cancelling your luci charge with a secondary fire to kill a dretch and not waste ammo that would be used to kill a goon, rant or alien base. (even switching to your blaster and back to cancel the charge)

It seems to me that someone found using lucifer cannon too hard so they thought they'd bump up the speed by a whole lot.

There is one thing I find kinda cool but also a bit ridiculous is the maruaders current wall jump.
You no longer need to try and hit a specific spot on a wall (or corner) to get up to high places. You now just have to hold down 'w' and 'space' and you will pretty much climb up the wall infront of you. Why not just give them wallclimb? They can pretty much stick to the roof/top of a wall as it is now.

[DeathByMe]

[[[I'd say gpp tyrant was WAY WAY overpowered compare to 1.1 tyrant in terms of damage, and the damage you can deal in combat is very reliant on your ping (higher ping, harder it is to hit multiple times) and in terms of health, regen is so damn slow. Maybe have the tyrant have double regen speed but i disagree with adding an 'aura' [quote---pride] ]]] Quote ViruS

I honestly dont care about the aura, im just saying that is early Unvanquished Alpha tyrant had the aura, but they made the basilisk have it instead, now the tyrant is useless, and i wouldn't mind aliens staying stage 2 all game.

[Asvarox]

2) Putting it in a way the may be put is an easier light asvarox, what has been nerfed/buffed for humans, and what has been nerfed/buffed for aliens?
ill start with aliens,
Nerfs: Basilisk 75>60 Rant 400>350 dretch damage, dragoon pounce damage.
buffs, S2 dragoon.

Humans
Nerfs: Crouch bug fixed
Buffs: what seems like 3x the projectile speed of lucifer, same damage. Side dodge (very insignificant, but still a buff), Jump every increased by heaps.
MD damage increased to 40 from, if im not mistaken, 35? and blaster slightly increased damage.

I'm afraid your list is far from being complete. Have you actually played GPP more than twice?
Aliens buffs - adv mara, lisk healing aura, lisk silent footsteps, lisk gas, dretch speed increase, barb splash dmg, 150bps, poison damage, pounce damage and going on and on.
Screw it, not really going to list all buffs and nerfs to aliens and humans there were too many changes to do so. The complete list: http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0
By the way, dodge feature for humans is actually a significant one, otherwise there wouldn't be such many people complaining about it supposedly "unbalancing the game".

1.1 was very balanced, the only reason people camped a base was because of difference of skill, or unbalanced maps
you can easily keep aliens out of your base if you keep preasure on the, and not sit on turrets.

1.1 balanced? Humans camped their base and aliens camped their foes base entrance achieving full map control. Humans rushes were mostly single people who were lucky enough to get through aliens at entrances without getting chased - aliens base was mostly empty rendering itself an easy target. The reason people camped a base was because they had hard time leaving it as there were 5 rants camping at the entrance. If you didn't kill them, they'd be max hp again before you get to respawn if they killed you.

In GPP it's not uncommon that both teams rush with all they have, both teams actually have to return to their base at one point and map control changes many times in a single match. Subjectively judging, there's much less games s3 vs s3 ending after SD compared to 1.1. Subjectively judging, games are tons more fun in GPP.

Have you ever played 1.1 scrim or seen one? It was full of camp from both sides and crouching humans. Not at all fun, just extremely boring. I have both played and watched GPP scrims, and they were tons of fun, action was going on all the time.

most of the changes favour humans, by a great deal

If you plan to play aliens in 1.1 fashion...

I'm not trying to say that GPP is perfect. It's not, its far from, there are many things requiring tweaking. But I do believe (as someone who played both version for years) that, besides few things (like lack of hovel), it's a giant improvement over 1.1.

[DeathByMe]

this is good material you have given me,

Lucifer Cannon
can no longer cancel charges with secondary fire
ammo capacity reduced 90 -> 80
projectile volume (primary and secondary) 10 cubed (against entities but not map architecture)
primary fire
projectile speed increased 350 -> 700 - this is quite fast.
max charge time increased 2000 -> 3000
secondary fire
damage increased 27 -> 30
projectile speed increased 350 -> 1400 - this is ridiculous
repeat increased 500 -> 1000

And for the most part, you have ignored what i have the most issues with. its the late game, and no i didn't noticed the adv Mara, and haven't played it once during Unvanquished, and i do think it is very good, but how does that help Tyrants keep up with Lucifer? 1 charged attack at 700 speed, and 4 alternate attacks, will kill a full hp tyrant. i think that's a bit much, not only that, they regen really slowly.

the biggest things, if you paid more attention, instead of blindly defending the game, you would have noticed i think tyrant need a regen buff, and lucy needs a projectile speed nerf. also, as 10-15% damage reduction on crouch might have some merit.

Im only saying this from a players perspective, its not up for argument, its up for discussion, and was not a complaint at all, but can you try and think of any solution to the fairly major Lucy>tyrant issue? or do you think its non-existent?
If anyone has any changes they could discuss, that would be better then a heated debate.