Using a blue version of the "red cross" in Unvanquished

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Viech
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Using a blue version of the "red cross" in Unvanquished

Post by Viech »

This thread is for discussing an issue brought up by poVoq concerning a thread in the development section of the forums about the new medipad model (which can be found here). Everyone is invited to participate in the discussion, though please leave sufficient space for the people directly involved in the matter to express themselves, being chris (as the modeler), poVoq (as the one who raised the concern), and me (as the artistic director). In particular, please refrain from posting one-liners of (dis)approval.

Here's the forum history from the original thread so far:

Viech wrote:

[…]

poVoq informed us that computer games have been critized for using the swiss red cross. I didn't read up on the specifics but I see the point in not using the symbol light-mindedly. I guess an alternative would be using an adaption of the Rod of Asclepius as an animated hologram.

[…]

kharnov wrote:

Really? People have been complaining about the red plus sign in video games? Why?

How about using a green cross instead?

Viech wrote:

[…]

I guess it would be related to the Geneva Convention and to the fact that shooting at people or vehicles marked with the red cross isn't usually proscribed or punished in computer games. It sounded like chris has some more specific articles, maybe he wants to share.

kharnov wrote:

I think a green cross or a red heart would be much better than that medical rod.

[quote="chris"]I found this one https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/docu ... -games.htm

The Rod of Aesculapius looks like a lot of tris,if it shouldn't look blocky, but could work as a sprite.
Maybe a syringe http://www.iconarchive.com/tag/syringe ?[/quote]

kharnov wrote:

Does this also apply to more fantasy oriented war games?

No, the ICRC is talking about video games that simulate real-war situations. It is not suggesting that this apply to games that portray more fictional scenarios such as medieval fantasy or futuristic wars in outer space.

Bold for emphasis. They're pissed off about the Red Cross logo in realistic modern-day military shooters, not fantasy or science fiction games like our own. Nobody, in their right mind, would think that a red plus sign in our game would have anything to do with the Red Cross, an organization that would likely no longer exist in its present form by the time our game takes place centuries from now in the far future, and on that note I think it would be absurd if people thought that shooting dretches and not offering them medical aid violated some law of armed conflict. There is absolutely nothing realistic about our game and at no point do we ever try to portray this as a realistic conflict. You do not face some sort of moral dilemma every time you kill something in Unvanquished. There are no refugee camps on any of our maps and neither humans nor aliens utilize child soldiers. Real-life wars are horrifying and produce some terrible things and I think that video games like the Call of Duty or Battlefield series can address that. Leave grangers out of the equation.

chris wrote:

[…]

I also think so. We are to sci fi for them.

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Viech
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Re: Using a blue version of the "red cross" in Unvanquished

Post by Viech »

I asked poVoq to give a statement here.

Personally, I'd like to know whether he or she thinks that a blue, three-dimensional plus sign hologram above the human medipad would still be problematic, given that:

  • A blue plus sign hologram is not strictly resembling the swiss red cross symbol even though it is clearly refering to it.¹

  • Unvanquished is a sci-fi based game.

  • In Unvanquished, using human weaponry against a person being healed isn't rewarded but rather punished by the gamelogic.

¹ As the plus icon likely signifies medical help only because it is used in the swiss red cross symbol.

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Re: Using a blue version of the "red cross" in Unvanquished

Post by poVoq »

This was my original follow up per PM:

The ICRC link is talking about the IHL (International Humanitarian Law) and it's application in video-games. Of course it doesn't make much sense to have fair treatment of prisoners of war etc. in a fantasy game (but with Aliens it might be a fun topic to explore by itself ;) ).

Regarding the use of the Red Cross logo, here is another statement by the Canadian Red Cross about it:

http://www.redcross.ca/about-us/about-t ... orld-to-us

There are two ways to look at it:

  1. One is the "protection" issue, i.e. that the sign has a serious meaning and should not be lightly used in games simulating conflict, regardless if it is fantasy/Sci-Fi or not. One can disagree about this and I also don't think video-games have an effect on violent behavior in real-life. But if one commonly disregards the sign and structures protected by it in games, people will not be aware of the meaning in real-life either.

  2. It's a trademark issues and in most states the red cross logo even has special protection by the government against any miss-use (for example usage on first aid kits not specifically endorsed by the national red cross society). So it is simply illegal to put a Red Cross in a game without specific permission by the rights holder... i.e. you can't put a McDonalds sign in Unvanquished either ;)

My suggestion for an alternative would be an animated sprite (always facing the viever) with the heat-beat curve as common on machines in hospitals, like this: http://images.idiva.com/media/photogall ... 00x450.jpg
If you want you can but this in a transparent sphere for a 3D effect.

Disclamer: I work for the Red Cross in conflict & emergency zones and are thus a bit sensitized to the issue...

Legally speaking a blue 3D plus sign, will be fine, but as Viech is already implying, its a bit like putting a green round "W" instead of a yellow round "M" as a McDonalds reference without getting into legal trouble.

Personally I would not object to a blue 3D plus, but I think there are other/better options that signify more that the med-pad is a piece of medial equipment that is used to scan vital functions or something like that.
A kind of augmented reality hologram with purely cosmetic effect can of course work, but I think given the otherwise quite pseudo realistic style of UNV, something that is closer to the idea of "form follows function" would be better.

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Re: Using a blue version of the "red cross" in Unvanquished

Post by kharnov »

If you're adamantly opposed to any plus sign of any color, I can compromise with a stylized heart symbol.

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Re: Using a blue version of the "red cross" in Unvanquished

Post by Viech »

Apparently a blue plus sign (or non-red I suppose, though blue is already the color of the hologram projector in the middle of the medipad anyway) works as a compromise. Of course that's just one option, if chris prefers a heart symbol or something different for artistic reasons then everyone should be happy, too. Maybe some symbol more directly related to medical services would even fit our lore better, given that the cross is a zeitgeisty symbol not really related to any tools or targets of medical service. I'll just ask chris to not make it a red cross in particular and see what fancy symbol he comes up with.

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Re: Using a blue version of the "red cross" in Unvanquished

Post by Comet_ »

Blue is my vote for anything as it fits with the general color scheme of the game; aliens red/purple - humans blue/silver. I dont have a particular opinion as to the icon but I can say that a floating blue heart would make me feel like Im playing a game like this one; I feel like the floating heart is a little too "light" for the game as hearts have too many inherent meanings.

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