Balance changes and ideas.

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Asvarox
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by Asvarox »

I think the goal is to give player a choice and have all the weapons commonly used throughout the game, not just until certain stage. Luci is just 150 credits more expensive (less than a dretch!) than pulse while it gives much more options and possible tactics in killing bases. I agree that pulse is easy in terms of ammo management but it's not that hard for the second, too. And I believe we can agree that Lucifer Cannon is way more capable of destroying bases. 99% of players would rather buy luci over pulse rifle if they wanted to rush the base, and if they couldn't afford it, they'd get a chainsuit and earn the missing credits. I don't really see a room for pulse at s3.

I do realize there are fewer roles than weapons, though I can't really think about a pair of weapons that'd overlap that much. Also we are not discussing the idea of making pulse rifle a hitscan weapon. We are talking about making it something more than just "s2 luci alternative".

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seana11
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by seana11 »

Asvarox wrote:

I think the goal is to give player a choice and have all the weapons commonly used throughout the game, not just until certain stage. Luci is just 150 credits more expensive (less than a dretch!) than pulse while it gives much more options and possible tactics in killing bases. I agree that pulse is easy in terms of ammo management but it's not that hard for the second, too. And I believe we can agree that Lucifer Cannon is way more capable of destroying bases. 99% of players would rather buy luci over pulse rifle if they wanted to rush the base, and if they couldn't afford it, they'd get a chainsuit and earn the missing credits. I don't really see a room for pulse at s3.

I do realize there are fewer roles than weapons, though I can't really think about a pair of weapons that'd overlap that much. Also we are not discussing the idea of making pulse rifle a hitscan weapon. We are talking about making it something more than just "s2 luci alternative".

Flying alien gogogogogo!

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DeathByMe
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by DeathByMe »

UniqPhoeniX wrote:

DeathByMe: stop trolling and gtfo of this thread until you've played GPP/Unv vs decent players (not bots) for 30+ hours.

How about fuck off, why would i get out of the thread I started. and for your information, I was at no point trolling, 100% of my input was serious, so I think you should gtfo. Btw, I play for several hours a day on Aussie Assault, and Aussie Assault doesn't have bots

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Khaoz
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by Khaoz »

Asvarox wrote:

Khaos, Saliva was around ever since GPP was introduced. As far I remember he also had participated in Planned Dev Games.

Time played is not a good indication of skill.

Although I have played since late 2007 and consider myself a good player.

Asvarox wrote:

Pulse rifle. You must be kidding me if you think it's useful an weapon. I'm happy when engaging one as it's an easier kill and gives plenty of evos too. When buying one myself, I hope I won't come across goon or mara before I reach their base as it'd be an exhausting duel. You rarely see them around, used often by rather newer players (as it's the most expensive weapon at s2). Besides killing bases it's not really effective. And once S3 hits, you'd rather use luci for the task anyway.

If you can't kill at least 2 goons with a pulse rifle, you're doing something very wrong. Most goons should run from a pulse rifle... unless the person behind it is terrible.
Whole team of pulse rifle + nade = Good bye alien base.. (based on many scrims played)

Asvarox wrote:

Shotgun inscreasing therange slightly wouldn't hurt, though my main issue with the weapon is that it's extremely buggy. You shoot the dretch, it's blood everywhere, yet it's still alive. You see no pellet hit the alien yet it lies dead. The only weapon that has that kind of issue, too.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Nothing is wrong with shotgun. It is a very effective gun. I and many other good players can leave the base with a shotgun and be quiet confident in getting kills and returning to base.

Asvarox wrote:

Dretch is too weak compared to rifle, yes, but as I stated many times, the issue lies in the rifle itself. Dretch is fine against other weapons. I think that lowering ammo count in a clip to 25 and increasing repeat to match the current time needed to shoot out entire clip is worth checking out. I'm sceptical about adding the pounce thing, it wouldn't solve the dretch issue for newbies.

The pounce on adv dretch on the KorX in 1.1 didn't help me much, I never really used it. Dretch is underpowered vsing most things with unlagged on and the current hitboxes in place.

Asvarox wrote:

I find beating aliens with pulse rifle requiring much more effort than with basically any other weapon in humans arsenal. And vice-versa, most of the time larm+helm+rifle is equal of a threat as same guy with pulse rifle, at least to me. Won't even compare chaingun-pulse. If it's supposed to be "base killing weapon" then we have that situation of 2 weapons meant for exact same thing with luci just being better suited. I'd like to note that once s3 is hit rant doesn't replace goon or any other class, and battlesuit doesn't replace good old larm+helm.

I'm starting to doubt the skill level of most posters on these forums....

Bsuit is usually combined with the chaingun (to reduce recoil) and to intimidate enemy aliens. It does have its place.
As I said before pulse rifle is extremely efficient in killing any aliens with ease (assuming you know how to use it properly and know WHERE to use it properly)
I have no idea why you would use chaingun for base killing (Over pulse rifle even....). That is one of the stupidest things I've heard in this thread, and a LOT of stupid things have been said.

UniqPhoeniX wrote:

DeathByMe: stop trolling and gtfo of this thread until you've played GPP/Unv vs decent players (not bots) for 30+ hours.

He actually started this thread and reacted angrily to ridiculously stupid suggestions.
UNLESS YOU HAVE PLAYED UNV FOR 10+ HOURS (or at all) Don't have a go at people for not playing the GPP (THIS IS NOT THE GPP)

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ViruS
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by ViruS »

[Sparking the memory about the barb losing its damage over time...]

Anomalous wrote:

Er… barb? You appear to be confused…

If you think about it....
A person throws a stone at you. It hurts.
A person throws a stone at you from beneath underneath you, and its speed at your point just high enough for you to feel it. It hurts a little.
A person drops a stone from an airplane and it lands on you. You die. Die... Unless you're lucky, or the stone happens to be a soft one or cracks upon impact.
It would be more realistic to have the damage based on speed rather than time spent in air.

UniqPhoeniX wrote:

DeathByMe: stop trolling and gtfo of this thread until you've played GPP/Unv vs decent players (not bots) for 30+ hours.

He has played more than you think againts players. I reckon more aussies play againts other players rather than the bots, mainly because we have aussie assault with frequent players [our time that is]
Also, you and your 'if you're a ddos player...' stuff kinda annoys me. I use chaingun in 1.1 way more than gpp/unvanquished, because it was more fun. It was harder to aim as well, makes things more fun.

Asvarox wrote:

Pulse rifle. You must be kidding me if you think it's useful an weapon. I'm happy when engaging one as it's an easier kill and gives plenty of evos too. When buying one myself, I hope I won't come across goon or mara before I reach their base as it'd be an exhausting duel. You rarely see them around, used often by rather newer players (as it's the most expensive weapon at s2). Besides killing bases it's not really effective. And once S3 hits, you'd rather use luci for the task anyway.

Shotgun inscreasing therange slightly wouldn't hurt, though my main issue with the weapon is that it's extremely buggy. You shoot the dretch, it's blood everywhere, yet it's still alive. You see no pellet hit the alien yet it lies dead. The only weapon that has that kind of issue, too.

Flamer is something I disagree with. It's fine as it is, self burn is not extreme, capable of killing smaller aliens as intended I guess.

Dretch is too weak compared to rifle, yes, but as I stated many times, the issue lies in the rifle itself. Dretch is fine against other weapons. I think that lowering ammo count in a clip to 25 and increasing repeat to match the current time needed to shoot out entire clip is worth checking out. I'm sceptical about adding the pounce thing, it wouldn't solve the dretch issue for newbies.

Prifle: U have to be kidding me. Luci isn't that all great for me on gpp, and on unvanquished i just use it because i have lower ping [lose 0.5 seconds of just searching for an enemy before it appears on my screen is a BIG diifference] so pulse is really effective. Usually on gpp i use pulse a lot more than luci, mainly because i use it like a long-ranged painsaw and for long ranges i use it like how i use a rifle on lagged servers. Once you know how to aim ahead, these weapons can be increasingly overpowered. Those who can't kill at least a goon with a pulse - you suck.

Shotgun: I found it tonnes easier to kill a dretch in 1.1 mainly because more pellets are shot. I also find it easier in 1.1 againts goons as long as i don't die from headshots. Mathematically, the gpp version should be easier, but i don't know. I'm just used to it.

Flamer - I liked the old self-burn mainly because it creates the fun in using famer.
Something about gpp flamer that really sucks is that i CANT KILL SMALL ALIENS WITH IT! They often go through my flamer while dodging and they lots of times somehow receive no damage. Its probably to do with that massive gaps between the "missiles" shot. I devmapped' and looked at the bbox of them and the gaps are really huge. A way to solve this is double the ammo, halve the damage, halve the repeat rate.

The most buggy thing about flamer is that you have to aim a little higher than just simply aiming visually at eggs and tubes on the floor - it hits the floor before the egg. Sounds normal, but i reckon the bbox of the missile is too damn huge. I have a demo if anyone wants to know what i mean.

Dretch/rifle stuff - I think its fine as is.
Rifle is OP againts dretches as long as the riflemen is a good aimer. Then again, dretches are OP because they can kill a human within a second if the human sucks at rifle point-blank* [which i assume applies to almost everyone]
*Not always the case, unlagged makes this gap bigger. I once got kicked for biting a person 'through a wall' which happened to be far away. I came back and blamed him for having his server using g_unlagged. He banned me for 'wallhacking' which doesn't really relate.

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Asvarox
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by Asvarox »

I never said I use chaingun to kill bases. I'd really recommend you to read posts few times (or have somebody read them aloud), as it's not really the first time. As for "so unskilled", nobody had mastered the weapon for 3 years? Maybe there's someone that can use it effectively against moving targets, I have yet to face one.

players would rather buy luci over pulse rifle if they wanted to rush the base, and if they couldn't afford it, they'd get a chainsuit and earn the missing credits. I don't really see a room for pulse at s3.

UNLESS YOU HAVE PLAYED UNV FOR 10+ HOURS (or at all) Don't have a go at people for not playing the GPP (THIS IS NOT THE GPP)

How many people here played Unv without bots for 10+ hours with decent amount of people? Not to mention that things discussed haven't been changed, directly at least, in Unvanquished.

Saliva has the reputation of one of the most skilled euro players out there. Wether it's deserved or not... Well I have to admit, he's almost as good as me :D
Joking aside, I believe time spent playing is a good indicator of how much the guy knows about the game and it's issues.

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Khaoz
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by Khaoz »

Asvarox wrote:

I never said I use chaingun to kill bases. I'd really recommend you to read posts few times (or have somebody read them aloud), as it's not really the first time. As for "so unskilled", nobody had mastered the weapon for 3 years? Maybe there's someone that can use it effectively against moving targets, I have yet to face one.

How many people here played Unv without bots for 10+ hours with decent amount of people? Not to mention that things discussed haven't been changed, directly at least, in Unvanquished.

Saliva has the reputation of one of the most skilled euro players out there. Wether it's deserved or not... Well I have to admit, he's almost as good as me :D
Joking aside, I believe time spent playing is a good indicator of how much the guy knows about the game and it's issues.

I was assuming you where comparing the Chainguns basekilling with the pulse rifles (as you have said the chaingun is just a better version)

As Aussie assault does not have bots on their server I'd say it's fair to say everyone who plays on it would have a good amount of hours under their belt.

I find it hard to believe that nobody in europe is good at pulse.... thats really not saying something good about european tremulous players. I'm sure there are people from there who are good at pulse.

Infact the pulse has actually been nerfed because of how powerful it is. The damage is now affected by range (closer you are less damage). The ammo clip is also smaller since 1.1

Seeing as you seem to believe that time spent playing is a good indicator It seems that playing for 5+ years would mean I would have a pretty good idea about the game. I know many players who have also played for 5+ years and are still bad.

As far as I know changes to the lucifer cannon are being discussed + tested with the current developers.
None of the other weapon suggestions have yet to be considdered.

Sixthly wrote:

My input: The direction since 1.1.0 is that all weapons are becoming standardized and no weapon brings anything unique. Everyone seems to want to use every weapon at range, with fast/instant projectile speed, and minimum skill. The previously slow projectile speed of the lucifer cannon introduced more variation to gameplay: how the player aims and shoots, and how the enemy dodges and attacks.

^^^^^

This. They don't wont every weapon to become a long range hitscan machine of death (like some of the suggestions suggest).

DeathByMe
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by DeathByMe »

Asvarox wrote:

Saliva has the reputation of one of the most skilled euro players out there. Wether it's deserved or not... Well I have to admit, he's almost as good as me :D

Cool.

Joking aside, I believe time spent playing is a good indicator of how much the guy knows about the game and it's issues.

risk
khaoz
sixthly
virus
templar
killersight
supersammich
TNT
geophray
falcon
pan61
setrack
crazy
cheese
Ultra
Ultra578
Plinky
lowHP
Leighrex
Jacky
Viper
Chuck
Pwnage
Ichigo
and myself pride

(all these names are from memory)

And ridiculous amounts of players with varying skill levels, we have all played this game between 6 months to 6 or so years, spanning from GameArena #1 to #3, to NetWars, then TremWars, and even further so, Aussie Assault. Most of us have played for 3-5 years, and are most veteran players, but even so, some players are amazing, some are shit. i myself have played since Game arena, at the very start of tremulous, and ill admit, i didnt play GPP, but truthfully don't give a fuck.

This list may seem pointless, but im useing it as an example of indication of skill, based on time played.
So if that answers anything about indication of skill. all these players have played for ages, some are pretty bad, and some are amazing.

In the period that i have played UNV, i have played maybe 40-80 minutes against bots, and only because even when i waited for actual players to come on, no one did, so i did the shitty alternative.

And dont assume people only play against bots, only because your in a different time zone and don't see them play.

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PaN61
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by PaN61 »

I have played with decent skilled players (No bots), for more than 10 hours on Unvanquished. I wouldn't be giving feedback if I haven't played the game for a decent amount of time to a point where I could give feedback based off in-game observation.

About the time a player has played, it isn't necessarily true that a player is more skilled the longer they play. Take my case for example, I match the skill level of players that have been playing for at least twice my time of 2 years, good players that is. I also possess a good understanding of Tremulous in lots of areas which I can apply to Unvanquished.

The pulse rifle is a really powerful weapon in the right hands. It's quite easy to kill a goon or two without even receiving any, if not, little damage, but then again, that's based off my skill level. I wouldn't even need a Pulse to take down a goon, the Shotgun or my prized weapon, the MD would suffice enough in these situations.

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Anomalous
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Re: Balance changes and ideas.

Post by Anomalous »

ViruS wrote:

[Sparking the memory about the barb losing its damage over time...]

Yes, definitely confused. I've not been discussing barbs…

Debian and Ubuntu packages (squeeze, wheezy, sid; 12.04, 12.10, 13.04) may work on derivatives

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