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Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:59 am UTC
by gavlig
I guess free upgrades mean that you'll have to rebalance all units so that even a dretch will have certain advantages before tyrant and playing it should potentially be as dangerous for humans as tyrant(more or less). Same goes for all human weapons. Is that even possible? :)

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:35 pm UTC
by 0z_
gavlig wrote:I guess free upgrades mean that you'll have to rebalance all units so that even a dretch will have certain advantages before tyrant and playing it should potentially be as dangerous for humans as tyrant(more or less). Same goes for all human weapons. Is that even possible? :)


Sure. Let me explain:

0z_ wrote:Placeable Medkits are crap. How about getting more class-based gameplay? i.e giving some new abilities to both sides. Anyway, these Aliens seems to have a large potential

- Stealth cloak?
- Healing other?
- Self-sacrifice?
- ?

Humans just `more sci-fi`, for sure, like a

- Reveal map entirely?
- Teleport to base?
- Placeable mines?
-?

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:16 pm UTC
by gavlig
Well, i think you can make a team fortress out of unva. probably. But will it be cool? :)

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:13 pm UTC
by 0z_
gavlig wrote:Well, i think you can make a team fortress out of unva. probably. But will it be cool? :)


Unvanquished is truly free and community-driven
Not so bad, to take something good from other good games - just have to discuss these innovations

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:20 pm UTC
by kharnov
So we played all of these changes on illwieckz's Tremulous Memories server on the old Tremulous maps. I had /rcon and set the various cvars each match. Here are a few valuable observations:

  • Nobody could figure out how the build point pools worked and people didn't find them intuitive, so I disabled that fairly early on.
  • A lot of people complained about the lack of human sprint. I think no stamina is still the way to go, but humans really need some alternative movement and bunny-hopping looks weird. So, I disabled no stamina fairly early on.
  • Free upgrades were not fun early on when everyone just had SMGs and dretches. It took a while for the game to build up steam, but after a while it was pretty good.
  • A lot of people complained about the lack of personal gain for killing something. They didn't find it intuitive that they killed something and didn't get credits or points.
  • You can grenade spam endlessly from an armory with free upgrades set to 1.
  • For whatever reason, people found free upgrades 1 more fun than 2, even if 2 was supposed to be a more balanced setting.

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:24 pm UTC
by cu-kai
kharnov wrote:So we played all of these changes on illwieckz's Tremulous Memories server on the old Tremulous maps. I had /rcon and set the various cvars each match. Here are a few valuable observations:

  • Nobody could figure out how the build point pools worked and people didn't find them intuitive, so I disabled that fairly early on.
  • A lot of people complained about the lack of human sprint. I think no stamina is still the way to go, but humans really need some alternative movement and bunny-hopping looks weird. So, I disabled no stamina fairly early on.
  • Free upgrades were not fun early on when everyone just had SMGs and dretches. It took a while for the game to build up steam, but after a while it was pretty good.
  • A lot of people complained about the lack of personal gain for killing something. They didn't find it intuitive that they killed something and didn't get credits or points.
  • You can grenade spam endlessly from an armory with free upgrades set to 1.
  • For whatever reason, people found free upgrades 1 more fun than 2, even if 2 was supposed to be a more balanced setting.

Essentially this.

If free upgrades 2 were to be used, I think the rate could be upped a little bit or players should get at least some sort of reward for killing the enemy.

Aliens should be able to evolve inside their base even if there is a human there.

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:04 am UTC
by kharnov
A few of the modifications seem very non-controversial to me and should probably be merged into the base game.

Simple momentum makes a lot of sense, and the reason that it wasn't voted as a favorite was probably because it's too subtle a change for people to notice directly. Anti-camping works well, and if anything, the camp range should be tweaked or perhaps dependent on map size somehow? Construct anywhere makes building much less annoying. Simplified locational damage is a major gameplay tweak that has been needed since Tremulous and has finally arrived to make using the dretch less awkward.

Thoughts?

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:35 am UTC
by killing time
I strongly dislike *Simplified locational damage* when applied to all classes. It's too dumbed down and for me makes aliens unenjoyable to play. The confusing mechanics of dretch headshots could stand to be changed, but not for larger types.

*Simple momentum* is probably a good idea. I can't even remember what the usual rules for that are except that there's something where it decays over time.

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:02 am UTC
by Lecavalier~
Some of these changes I really like. They add to or improve the game in one way or another. We know what they are and how they do so I'll just list them off:

Anti-camping
Construct anywhere
Removal of stamina
Simplified locational damage
Build point pools


For the things I was less keen on:

Free upgrades- I seem to be in the minority here, but I'm not a fan of the free upgrades. It removes the rewards for killings and the punishment for dying, which were parts I enjoyed. Maybe free upgrades 2 can make me see the light. (I believe today was free upgrades 1?)

Removal of stamina- I know I listed this under my likes, but here I mean specifically the removal of sprinting. It's like pulling teeth trying to get across the map with the humans slow, meandering walk.

Simplified locational damage- This one I like, but only for dretch. killing time said it well:
killing time wrote: It's too dumbed down and for me makes aliens unenjoyable to play.

It also seems to make it nearly impossible to kill a suit with anything less than rant. Maybe have it only apply to dretches?

Of course, I've only played a few games the past couple weeks, I'll play some more and get back to this thread with better thoughts/ideas/arguments/complaints

Re: Poll: gameplay changes so far

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:12 am UTC
by Ishq
Free upgrades: I think the experiments with this were enlightening. I loved the aggressive nature it brought to the game, but I also dislike how one dimensional it made the game. Now, we have to find a way to keep the aggressiveness of the game, while also making the economy an issue. I'm starting to agree with some folks that we need a deathmatchy mode, and then some more competitive modes.

Simple Momentum: The idea of momentum is that the inner workings are meant to be opaque to the user. Doing what "feels" right, like attacking, killing, building, or helping your team in some way should result in momentum. The goal was that players shouldn't have to think about what they're doing. Just keep playing and the momentum would come. I'm not sure simplifying it is necessary. One of the strengths of the momentum system was that it was so flexible to make it easy to promote active and aggressive behavior by weighting different activities differently.

No camping: eh. People get stuck in their base due to constant rushing, so I'm not sure I have a good feel for what this mechanic entails.

Unlocked Buildables: Seems good to me actually. Poison at the beginning of the game is kinda lame, and tbh, I'm starting to turn on the poison mechanic. It's horribly unfun when you have to run back to base because you got a love tap from a dretch.

Build anywhere: This seems okay, to be honest. The fewer restrictions allow for more risky forwards. I don't like the lack of OM/RC requirement though. The idea of a weakpoint seems fun. Power restrictions force humans to uncluster their bases and nades force aliens to uncluster their bases, so spammy bases are less of an issue than I expected.

Build Points: We debated this early on and decided to go with aggregating resources instead of a pool, because we wanted to reward map control held on for a time. I think this decision was wrong. It entrenched a team and allowed them to basically spam bases whereever they wanted forcing long turtle games which were super boring. I like build points now. Less BP forces builders to be more judicious with build points. Also slightly more forgiving because you get BP back when you lose them.

Stamina: I like stamina. It adds another dimension to movement. I also dislike strafe jumping as medium of getting around. I really only like strafe jumping when used in combat. Instead, we should find other ways to move humans rapidly around the map.

Locational Damage: This takes getting used to when coming from Tremulous. I think this mechanic is good in what it does in that it makes it very clear how much damage you do. If nothing else, we should definitely keep the increased damage from back/sides. Makes alien flanking tactics much more effective and fun. That said, it makes aliens slightly more dissatisfying without having the head as a target.