Camping is NOT a choice

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lamefun
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Camping is NOT a choice

Post by lamefun »

You say camping is a choice, but simple true-think shows that it isn't.

Obviously, humans camp because they are afraid to go out.

They are afraid to go out because they'll lose all credits if they do it alone, because they can't run away like aliens do all the time.

So any single human doesn't go out because no one else goes out.

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Gireen
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

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Viech
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

Post by Viech »

lamefun wrote:

Obviously, humans camp because they are afraid to go out.

Assuming that they're afraid to lose their base: Sometimes this is a map issue where aliens can reach it on a path that doesn't collide with the pathes that the humans take. I learned this the hard way with Parpax where too many such pathes (i.e. vertical ventilation shafts) to the human base actually made it more than viable to stay close to it. Often the fear is unnecessary though: On maps with a more straightforward layout (like ATCSHD, where you raised your criticism) humans who do leave base will actually secure it through that. Pushing out on all lanes that lead to your base is a dominant strategy there and the moment that you can't do that anymore as you ran out of resources is the moment where you're forced to stay in base to generate credits at the cost of buildables, which is a state that you'd want to avoid. The core problem is that this isn't obvious, maybe not even intuitive right now.

lamefun wrote:

They are afraid to go out because they'll lose all credits if they do it alone, because they can't run away like aliens do all the time.

There is a certain timeframe where the human would like to run away but can't since the alien is faster and then if the human survives the first seconds of an assault (through movement and armor, the timeframe depends on aim and weapon) there's a certain time where the alien would like to run away but can't since the human is ranged. This is greatly unequal but it isn't necessarily unfair. You'll find that players who are a good degree better than you will usually win the encounter no matter what side they play on.

lamefun wrote:

So any single human doesn't go out because no one else goes out.

This is partly a communication/feedback/feature issue that can be improved on the development end but it's also a mentality that's based on subpar assumptions about good play. We'll need to teach this to new players and Tremulous veterans alike. Players staying in base between enemy attacks should be invited to join in on attacks as they're not getting to shoot at much during that time anyway. The only bases that need a full time defender are those that are built so aggressively that you'd attack through one path only.

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lamefun
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

Post by lamefun »

You forgot that most of the time aliens have an opportunity not to get in uneven fights at all and pick easy prey instead, while human outside the base has to fight every single alien on the way.

I think you should add an incentive to go out even when you don't have any chance to survive or do any damage to alien base.

  • Award credits 60% damage and 40% kill. For example, you can get 1000 credits from Tyrant, 600 for damage an 400 for kill. If you deal 349 damage and die, while the tyrant escapes and heals, you still get 598 credits for that.
  • Award credits for damaging / killing buildings.
  • Add personal mini-momentum that you get for damaging and killing, that's quick to deteriorate and will give you some extra credits per second for free.
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Viech
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

Post by Viech »

The credit graphs for both teams are roughly balanced, so this isn't really something that should be fixed with a vastly different credit policy for both teams:

Image

This shows that on average, aliens have about 100-150 spare credits more than humans and both teams spend about the same average amount on "equipment". It is true that the credits difference means that aliens can buy-back twice while humans can only do this about one and a half times, which is signficant. However, I'd prefer to solve this by giving humans a greater deal of on-the-field healing, which also increases their reach quite directly and not just on paper. Ideally I'd like them to heal as often as they want but they have to stand still or atleast lower their gun in the process. I'm imagining a first person animation where they inject themselves a device with a needle for as long as they want to heal.

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lamefun
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

Post by lamefun »

This will only lead to super-extra camp, because humans still can't escape, and survivability decreases because you can no longer heal mid-fight.

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Viech
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

Post by Viech »

lamefun wrote:

survivability decreases because you can no longer heal mid-fight.

Who said that this wouldn't be rebalanced accordingly. I don't plan to stick with the current posion and damage mechanics forever.

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lamefun
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

Post by lamefun »

Viech wrote:
lamefun wrote:

survivability decreases because you can no longer heal mid-fight.

Who said that this wouldn't be rebalanced accordingly. I don't plan to stick with the current posion and damage mechanics forever.

Humans will still extra-ultra camp because the main reason why they camp is that going out alone will drain your credits to zero fast.

Also you'll only have your initial 100 health to escape, because you can't heal while on the run.

Aliens can go out alone and keep their evos because they can avoid fighting if necessary.

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Viech
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

Post by Viech »

I already explained this above. This kind of inequality is part of the game. If aliens choose not to attack, no one wins or loses any credits (but the humans get to the alien base without taking damage while the alien can't get to the human base without being shot at…), if they choose to attack, it should be a fair fight that ends with one dead. If the alien flees during fight, then again no one wins or loses any credits. The only unfair inequality I see there is that humans have limited healing and ammo in the open while aliens don't. If humans healed more between skirmishes, this means their chances of winning an encounter are reset similiarly during skirmishes as it is for aliens through their regeneration abilities.

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lamefun
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Re: Camping is NOT a choice

Post by lamefun »

You don't think true, you think in terms of falsehood, as if the fights are always fair, with evenly matched equipment or classes.

  • If a weak group of humans meets a strong group of aliens, the humans are going to die.
  • If a strong group of humans meets a weak group of aliens, the aliens will most likely run away.

Aliens can go out alone with much less risk than humans. But if you do that as a human you'll quickly lose all credits.

And if humans attack alien base, aliens HAVE TO get out to protect it.

But if your whole team camps, you gain nothing by going out.

All humans most certainly think this way, and camping never stops without some serious communication.

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